Iraq Opponents Sometimes Need To Just Keep Quiet
30 09 2007I’m really sick of the people in America with so much hatred for President Bush or the Iraq situation that they have to twist any situation into an assault on people supporting the troops. It’s to the point that even children are no longer exempt from the seemingly mindless agenda of the extreme anti-Bushians in the political arena. It’s disgusting, it’s embarassing and it’s doing nothing at all to make people change their minds on the war situation.
The latest example comes courtesy of Josh Capps in today’s Springfield News-Leader. Josh decided to smear a rally thrown by Willard Middle School students to show they supported our soldiers and to encourage them as they’re thousands of miles from home and in harm’s way. The rally wasn’t a rally to support Bush, to support the war or to stand up and say how only true Americans endorse what’s going on in Iraq. It was a group of students who just wanted to encourage the soldiers and lift their morale as they fight all over the world. It’s a noble cause for these students and they should be encouraged to be involved in the political process or to at least be aware that we have men and women who sacrifice parts of their lives in the armed forces so we all have the rights to live as we choose to live. It’s better than having them sit around and watch Spongebob Squarepants and Lindsay Lohan updates all day.
So can Josh let the rally go? Nope. He has to run to his letter writing device (either letter or computer keyboard) to say how there should be a little less “blind rah rah.” Josh can’t even let children support our troops without running in with anti-Iraq, anti-Bush babble as if everyone in the Ozarks will suddenly forget that some people don’t like the war due to a few hours’ efforts from these kids. He even went on in his letter to say that these kids would only truly love the troops if they lined up with Josh’s political slant.
Anti-Bush, anti-war extremists like Josh need to learn there are times they should just keep their mouths shut and let something progress without trying to twist it into their political views. The rally had nothing to do with supporting Bush yet Josh had to go and put that taint on it with his efforts. This was a situation where the anti-Bush people should have recognized the children for doing what they were doing…supporting and trying to encourage the troops…and just let them alone.
Now, I’m sure I’ll get the obligatory “we have the right to do it” and “who are you to tell us to be quiet” postings that come any time someone dares to stand against one of these anti-war extremists and challenge them to actually have some decency and decorum about their actions. It’s not about your right to do it because that’s not in question. Josh certainly had the right to smear this event with his political extremism and the newspaper certainly had the right to print it. That doesn’t mean Josh SHOULD have done it. (I’m not going to say the newspaper shouldn’t have printed it because I see no problem with them printing it if they receive it. I put the fault solely on Josh Capps.)
I’m sorry to be so blunt about it and saying that sometimes they need to just keep quiet. However, I’m to the point I’m sick of it with all the Code Pink stunts and people like Josh who cannot let schoolchildren support the troops without making it an anti-Iraq, anti-Bush situation. I don’t even support the Iraq war but I’m to the point that I really don’t I can support the anti-war side of the debate because of deplorable actions like Josh’s and Code Pink’s. Josh, if you and others truly DO support the troops, then you need to learn when to let people support them without trying to imply any pro-troops is pro-Bush.
The best way to support the troops is to bring them home, out of harm’s way. Also to have good VA benefits and lots of counseling programs.
So you think we should just abandon everything in the rest of the world? Or do you only look at Iraq and don’t see the big picture of our troops all around the world?
The best way to thank our troops is to shake their hands and say you appreciate their putting their life on hold to protect and serve us regardless of where they are in the world. It’s not all about Iraq. Open your eyes, Cassie.
Look at how Bush and the repub congress treat the troops:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/TRUTHOUT/~3/163383858/093007F.shtml
Returning From Iraq, Wounded Vets Now Suffer Financial Woes
from t r u t h o u t
Jeff Donn and Kimberly Hefling, The Associated Press, write:
“He was one of America’s first defenders on September 11, 2001, a Marine who pulled burned bodies from the ruins of the Pentagon. He saw more horrors in Kuwait and Iraq. Today, he can’t keep a job, pay his bills, or chase thoughts of suicide from his tortured brain.”
I see your point on how people use children to push their agenda and it is sick to see that kind of manipulation. This is your sounding board, so it’s your opinion, no need to apologize. I enjoy reading different perspectives on issues like this.
Cassie, what you posted here has nothing to do with my blog entry.
CDM, thanks for the comment.
1. Yes, we need to get out of Iraq.
2. But yelping and complaining like cranky kids in the back of the family vacation station wagon isn’t a good way to get ones’ point across.
2a. While back, a St. Louis Post-Dispatch “Political Fix” commenter told me (when I used to bother visiting the site) that “a little violence at a peace rally isn’t a bad thing” and “conservatives need to be beaten up” (not verbatim quotes, but close; I’m editing some of the mental imagery as I recall them, but the gist is there). One of these peace-loving leftists used to visit one of my blogs, and leave messages like (now verbatim quotes) “come down to Springfield and kick your inbred right-wing hillbilly ass”.
3. Corollary to 2a: Committing violence in the name of peace, is like getting laid at a chastity rally.
4. Anti-war people, for the love of God please give up the tired paradigm of “Why don’t you go down to the recruiters’ office and join the military” rejoinder. It makes zero sense as an arguing point.
Yeah, I’d like to see the troops out of Iraq, too. But I’m not going to join Code Pink just to prove that fact.
I wonder how free students were at Willard who were anti-war to express their opinons? Given that children at that age can be led to rally for or against most anything only to reject it later (hence the failure of DARE prgrams and abstentence pledges)…one shouldnt criticise the students…tho one could ask some critical questions regarding the adults involved.
I support bringing the troops home too, after winning and they achieve thier objectives - you know - like whats happening now.
No one is willing in the MSM to ask this, but you think maybe the surge of violence in Iraq might be linked to our 06 election and their attempt to persuade the American public to get out?
Finally, I would like to point out that the LB guy is right on point number four. It is a lame excuse to try and silence people.
That said, I constantly try to talk to people who have been on the ground (or who are in Iraq), or who are Iraqi citizens them selves.
Thats the great thing about being a cynic when it comes to the MSM - go ask people your self and get the whole story. When you do, it is quite eye opening.
The main problem of this war is that they (the administration) keeps changing the reason for the war and its objectives. Traditionally one wins a war by capturing territory, defeating the opposing armed forces, taking the captital and its leaders. All of this was done three years ago. We should have declared victory (opps Bush did!) and then got out. Instead it becomes a part of the war against metaphors, a war without end. The escalation of troop numbers is an area seems to have the same results as extra police. It temporarily moves the probems to another neighborhood. Also, the insurgents seems to be adopting a new strategy of taking out domestic enemies first before taking on the US. While al-qaida seems satisified with baiting the USA to stay longer as a way to wear down the US military (making it harder to intervene in new trouble spots), while continuing to forment civil war between Iraqi sects.
Uh, no.
Your statement would be true under the light footprint scenario.
The surge aimed at not allowing what you are saying to happen - to happen. It has worked.
Another thing is that we were trying for a top down political solution instead of working from the bottom up.
In Iraq, and other various places in the world, locals look to tribal elders for accountability before the national government.
This was a mistake which is also being rectified.
The objectives are the same as was the reason. Tactics have changed, thank God, and it is working.
Indeed, it is a sad day in a America when, despite the fact that 70 percent of the populace disapproves of this illegal, lie of a war, so-called “stunts” from individuals like myself and groups like Code-Pink are the only straws stirring the proverbial drink and encouraging action.
Here’s how it went down: I saw the “We Love Our Troops” article and it made me angry… because it was a fairy-tale. It’s a nice fairy-tale, and it’s a nice story to fall asleep to, but it’s untrue. We no longer use our troops to defend “freedom”. We use them to make money. We have been misled. And our kids are being misled, too. And used for a political agenda, as well.
That’s truly evil, and to not speak out against it is unpatriotic and immoral.
The United States is WRONG on this one. I love this country, I love the troops, and I love my constitution, but we screwed this one up. We invaded a sovereign nation and made it a roach hotel for terrorists, albeit a roach hotel we can’t deal with. Let’s just admit it. Declare a loss and leave. Or, hell, declare victory and leave. But stop encouraging more of it. And don’t use kids — uneducated and underfunded kids at that, kids that most supporters of this war vote not to fund with taxes — to do it.
Jason, you’re a brave American to put your life on the line, attack me, and, well, blog, but give me a break. And perhaps I would allow you more of a break if your blog didn’t mix the only issue everyone in this country should stand up and do something about — this war — with NFL asides (inaccurate asides at that — McNabb looks like Harrington? Uhh, Harrington has a 98 passer-rating this year… what point are you making?) and plot-points for “Saw 5″.
Josh, many people are encouraging action. They just don’t attack schoolchildren to do it.
I’m not surprised you completely ignored the whole point of the blog. In fact, you just proved what I had claimed.
I really hope that you don’t think you, Code Pink and other extremists are the only people working to get Iraq policy changed. If you do, you need to see professional psychological help.
Re: Psychological help. Do I need to see it, or seek it? Like, can I just look at it, and I’ll be cured?
And if I ignored any point your blog had, it was because said blog was decidedly unclear and prosaic, and I couldn’t really tell what the point was.
But, let me be clear: I did not “attack” schoolchildren; I never claimed we extremists who believe in a quaint old document called the Constitution are the only ones working aggressively (in all forums, be it the classes I teach or the letters I write or the conversations I have at bars) to change the Iraq policy — I mean, by all accounts, you’re doing all you can, with your intelligent musings on the Jigsaw killer and all; and, what the hell, if you wanna go half on brown shirts for all the wee children in Willard, I’ll go for the other half.
Wow…Josh Capps really is an idiot, isn’t he?
If someone wants to see the failure of the American educational system, they just need to look at this loser.
How should they look at me? Do I need to post a photo?
Or should they look at my posts? Is that what you meant?
From Josh’s second comment: “I never claimed we extremists who believe in a quaint old document called the Constitution are the only ones working aggressively”
From Josh’s first comment: “so-called “stunts” from individuals like myself and groups like Code-Pink are the only straws stirring the proverbial drink and encouraging action.”
So, yes, you did claim extremists like yourself are the only ones working to change Iraq policy.
You got me… I was trying to be concise, but I did it at the expense of clarity.
I left out a very important “seem to be” (at least in terms of our own community, where I’ve seen nearly a dozen wound-up editorials about the damn square over the past three weeks) in my first statement.
I’m sorry for the lack of clarity, and if I post enough, I’m sure you’ll be able to latch onto a number of rhetorical missteps.
But, yeah, for the most part, I don’t see enough outrage about this miserable war. On your blog, in the press, out on the streets.
And when I see children like those in Willard being used to promote such an egregious lie, I think of kids in Palestine cheering when the towers came down. Makes me kinda sick to my tummy.
But, to more important matters: what’s the plot for Saw 7?
So showing support for someone who serves in the armed forces is an “egregious lie”? That’s all these kids did because it wasn’t a pro-war rally. It was a ‘we love the troops’ event.
And are you really lacking the intelligence to see what was in the Saw 5 post or did you see the title and decide to make an attack?
Jason, dont let Mr. Capps shake ya. The only thing that wasnt missing in his post was surgar to add to the kool aid.
There was not even an attempt at intellectual honesty or the willingness to engage in open discussion and civilized debate.
For those people I would pay no mind.
The truth is that our men and women are fighting a very evil enemy in a foriegn land which most of us do not even understand the basics of their culture.
I would agree that the Bush administration has not handled the war as it could have, and in retrospec the post war phase was completely botched post abu grahib.
I would also point out, though, that people like Mr. Capps share a measure of responsibility in encouraging our enemies and strengthening their resolve.
There is a good reason why 2006 had a record number of casualties in Iraq - and why people like Iran and Al Qeada cheered a Democrat win in November.
No secret I’m anti-war.
No secret I support the troops.
So it’s not clear to me how an event aimed at supporting the troops is viewed as a pro-war rally. If kids make care packages and send them to the troops at Christmas, will that be seen as a a pro-war move? To me it has less to do with war and more to do with supporting the troops as human beings.
Oh, and I didn’t miss the content of the Saw post. But I’d still like to know if anyone thinks the Saw movies are any good.
Hey sky girl. Maybe you should talk to our men and women in uniform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyqk1LsCDBQ
Something to think about.
Paul: there are many who have come back who agree with my point of view. It’s a divisive issue for everyone.
SG: And a vast majority more who do not. I know. I try to keep my finger on that particular pulse because I trust those in the media about as far as I can throw them.
I am also not sure how you can oppose the mission and support our men and women in combat.
I happen to believe that while it can be a divisive issue, it should not be one.
It used to be that politics stopped at waters edge, but I guess that since its a Republican in office that doesnt count.
I am still grapling with why people desire to see us defeated in Iraq and afghanistan - especially with the stakes what they are.
If you are maintaining that the war was mishandled, I would say that to an extent you are correct. Why? Because certain elements of the command did not understand the significance in tribal relationships.
Similarly, many of those tribes didnt understand the threat in holding hands with Al Qeada.
That changed last year. As did our strategy.
Instead of working top down, the process switched to working from bottom up. The results speak for themselves.
What I pray happens, though, is that we are able to continue to keep the area stablized through the 2008 election cycle.
I firmly believe Al Qeada and Iran (Shiite death squads) ratcheted up the violence for the sole purpose of trying to influence the elections here - just like they did in Spain a while back and a few weeks ago just before the Petreaus report.
In any case I still maintain the best way to exit Iraq is through victory.
That philosophy is working as troops are starting to come home now (the first Marine detachment of 2200 is coming home with no replacements).
Had we listened to Reid and those who wish defeat upon our nation - and victory to the terrorist (there is a winner if there is a loser, like it or not), violence would not be going down and Iraq would be in a much worse situation.
Iraq and Afghanistan are two different places. I feel differently about them. We went into Afghanistan with a specific mission related to the 9/11 attacks. We still haven’t found the guy in charge of those attacks. I think we should peel through every nook and cranny until we do.
We went into Iraq to fight an oil war under false pretenses. Our elected officials agreed to the war after being lied to. There is plenty of evidence to support this assertion. It’s a mess now, and one we should consider getting out of.
I’m not even sure how victory is defined here (I’m not being snarky). The objective was get rid of Saddam Husein and WMD. #1 done, and #2, well, it turns out that was an exaggeration at best. The objective has been to develop a democratic government in Iraq. Well, we’ve tried, and I’m not sure given the history and politics in their country we can succeed. Because of what we’ve done, terrorists have moved in. Now the objective is to get rid of all of them. There are plenty of other countries full of terrorist, and I hope we don’t plan to run around the world trying to get them all. That is not a strategy that can be successful in fighting terrorism.
I think if our leaders could be honest about the objective, which is economic and related to oil, then people would at least understand what “victory” means in this case.
You can support the troops as human beings with families and lives who are in harm’s way everyday without supporting the mission their leaders have ordered them to carry out.
I’m curious why when I (or anyone else for that matter) express an opinion opposing the war, I’m suddenly a Democrat trying to use the war for politics. My opinion on this issue has nothing to do with who is in office. It is possible, you know, that I just thought about it and formulated an opinion. It is also arrogant to assume that no one on the opposing side ever talks to the troops.
We went into Iraq to fight an oil war under false pretenses. Our elected officials agreed to the war after being lied to. There is plenty of evidence to support this assertion. It’s a mess now, and one we should consider getting out of.
Not just no, hell no. You and I were not lied to any more than the members of the intellence deparment who gave us the information, that includes defectors and intellegence from France and Germany.
There are reports out there from people (and countries like Isreal) who claim that many of the WMDs were flown to Syria (the Bekka valley if memory serves me correctly). In fact, Isreal warned us before the invasion what was going on.
Still, lets grant you the point that the world’s intellegence agencies were wrong and Saddam had no WMD.
The David Kay report found that Saddam was gearing up a WMD program - that as soon as sanctions lifted - he would put into high gear.
To say that the war was for oil is a bold face lie born out of extreme propaganda.
The reality is if Bush administration wanted to keep oil prices down (and his popularity high) he would have played the same game France did at the time and allowed the oil for food scandal to continue. It was because of the invasion that speculation began its sky rocketing prices.
In short, the logic does not follow.
In any case that is the past and it brings us to where we are here.
Victory has been outlined repeatedly. There never has been a shift in said policy.
Yes, the ouster of Saddam was achieved, but creating a stable democracy is still in the works. That is in no small part thanks to Iran and Al Qeada.
At the same time, the Administration does share blame for selecting the wrong strategy for rebuilding and securing Iraq. That has now been corrected and we are winning.
The result? Marines are getting to come home without being replaced by another unit from here in the states.
Should we change our definition of victory to simply create a secure environment? That is debateable.
I would also point out that from my perspective, its border line racist (not saying you are intentionally) to say another culture cannot handle freedom and democracy. In fact, many Iraqis find it just a bit condecending to hear Americans say it.
The truth his, many Iraqis want freedom and peace.
How do I know this? Ive talked to a number and interviewed some for my blog.
In any case I still know that we are only harming those in the field through the support of our surrender to Al Qeada and Iran through the withdrawl from Iraq.
One only need to look as far as the response from Bin Laden and Iran’s President who praise the Democrat’s taking over of Congress in 2006 to understand the ramifications of a political party here in the U.S. banking and advocating the defeat of our forces.
Paul:
You seem to be an intelligent person who has thought through his arguments and opinions. I respect that. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
“Jason, dont let Mr. Capps shake ya. The only thing that wasnt missing in his post was surgar to add to the kool aid.”
Wow, what an original reference! I’ve never heard Mr. Bill O’ Reilly use the same euphemism. And, hypothetically, if I had, I would surely be just in suggesting that you drink from the same hackneyed Kool-Aid (love the fact that you advertised for a corporation in your post, by the way – can’t we just call it “fruit drink”?).
“There was not even an attempt at intellectual honesty or the willingness to engage in open discussion and civilized debate.”
No, sir, at the very least, there was an attempt; whether or not that “attempt” failed is subjective. If you care to expound upon why it “failed”, go for it.
“For those people I would pay no mind.”
Shocker.
“The truth is that our men and women are fighting a very evil enemy in a foriegn land which most of us do not even understand the basics of their culture.”
You meant “foreign”, correct? I’m basing this post on that assumption, which is more logical than our basis for war, so what the hell, no?
“Very” evil? Not just “EVIL” these days, eh? Failed policy makes us stretch hyperbole, right? It’s gotta be “very”? But, you are correct, most of us do not understand the basics of a “their” culture, including, most importantly, our ELECTED representatives.
“I would agree that the Bush administration has not handled the war as it could have, and in retrospec the post war phase was completely botched post abu grahib.”
What a bold stance! A war against a sovereign country with no connection to 9/11, no army, no money, and no WMD lasting more years than the it took to defeat the two biggest armies in the world during WW2 has been “mishandled”? Shocker. Scholars, experts, and fools could’ve told you that about the same time President Maverick landed on that aircraft carrier. And, the war-phase was botched POST naked-torture-gate? Really? Pretty sure we disbanded any semblance of legal authority well before Abu-Gharaib, pretty sure we didn’t destroy the weapons rations because of the unproven notion that they contained WMDs, pretty sure we booted a number of military gays who spoke Arabic under “Don’t ask, don’t tell” – long before that torture-prison nightmare.
“I would also point out, though, that people like Mr. Capps share a measure of responsibility in encouraging our enemies and strengthening their resolve.”
Here’s where you cross a line, tough guy. I’m “encouraging our enemies and strengthening their resolve”? Really? Are there a lot of subscriptions to the Springfield News-Leader in Pakistani caves? In Haditha? You resorted to hyperbole and slander to try to prove your ridiculous point, and I call you on it. Hmm, what truly inflames our enemies and ruins the real hope, that hope that fewer and fewer impoverished Arabs join terror groups: a Josh Capps editorial in a redneck newspaper, a Code Pink protest at a minor league baseball game, or a bunch of under-funded, poorly-trained, culturally-inept soldiers invading an Arab country run by a dictator who opposes terrorism – soldiers who, at that, are undercut by mercenaries like Blackwater who were given sweetheart deals, triple the pay, and carte blanche in order to protect a Green Zone that’s more of a fantasy the Oz and do exactly the opposite of winning “hearts and minds”.
“There is a good reason why 2006 had a record number of casualties in Iraq - and why people like Iran and Al Qeada cheered a Democrat win in November.”
Seriously? You’re citing Iran and Quaeda as proof for your arguments? Maybe you’re the real terrorist… nah, while you have the misguided mindset, you don’t have the heart or courage.
Sky girl,
“No secret I’m anti-war.”
Who isn’t, in principle?
“No secret I support the troops.”
Our troops? Any troops? Whose troops? My policy: I support humans, but not so-called human nature, and if those humans, especially poor and uneducated humans, are used for monetary purpose under the guise of “freedom” and “hope” doesn’t this become more than a black-n-white statement? Don’t, as a responsible citizen, you have to see more texture that exists in the situation?
“So it’s not clear to me how an event aimed at supporting the troops is viewed as a pro-war rally.”
This event was aimed at the vague concept of “supporting the troops” in a time that’s defined by a very explicit need to get these troops home immediately. The people who organized this have their heads in the sands at best, and are trying to undermined the righteous movement to bring our troops home now at worst.
“If kids make care packages and send them to the troops at Christmas, will that be seen as a a pro-war move? To me it has less to do with war and more to do with supporting the troops as human beings.”
Is that why the kids are supporting them? As human beings? If that were the case, and if that were what we were truly trying to instill in our youth – human suffering – wouldn’t these children be far more educated and active about, say, with the human casualties in Iraq, our partners in crime in Saudi, the child-laborers in China who sewed the clothes these Willard children wore to the their “rally for human beings”, the bodies in Darfur and Burma, the injustice in Jena, the Negro humans on roofs in New Orleans, the innocents on our own government-funded death row, the victims of a Taliban who made deals with Dick(s) in our government pre-9/11, etc., etc., etc.
These kids are pawns in the game. No more, no less. Care packages, or no.
“Oh, and I didn’t miss the content of the Saw post. But I’d still like to know if anyone thinks the Saw movies are any good.”
They suck. Then again, I’m a communist, terrorist-aiding idiot according to this board, so take that for what it’s worth.
Attacked by the left, attacked by the right. Can’t win on this post. =) Agree to disagree with you, too, Josh.